- biggest nonwork income is rental either as owner or sublease tenant.
- .. collocate with sub-tenants?
- .. 43R model like Amy/GuangMin did — potentially big income, once we buy a multi-story home
- wife working .. if kids get taken care of and things work out. Big income.
- DYOC .. of stocks including Reit
Category: cflowPrjnUS
US-centric
comfort@commute ∉ livelihood #SDXQ
BR]US^ cflowPrjn]US^ outlay_figure^ cmcUS
- t_outlay_figure .. covers Singapore, Chn and country-agnostic topics.
- .. burn-rate and beyond
- .. Not_suitable for U.S. because there are many other tags/categories for U.S. burn rate.
- .. If “overcrowded”, then I will pick some frequently reviewed posts for possible untagging, provided they are under cflowPrjn or t_BR]US
- t_BR]US .. all-encompassing burn rate
- cflowPrjn … includes any incomes or burn rate, in a projection. Not_suitable for past burn rate analysis in the U.S.
- t_midClassUS .. is more specific, about middle class
[17]US burn rate now n after #Gerald
Update — U.S. burn rate is inherently higher than SG.. U.S.compared2sg: high cost@living #Melvin3items shows car, pTax, medical insurance etc
Hi Gerald,
I always write down my reflections after meeting an old friend. No need to read. Busy dads… I know.
One of my top 3 biggest worries was my U.S. cash flow. (The other biggies would be finding/keeping a job, and lack of time for exercise + learning + rest … everything.)
To resolve the worry, I need to estimate to specific numbers.
Phase 1 — When I live and work in U.S. by myself, my monthly cash flow will be comfortable — around 9-10k income against $700 rental + $700 personal expenses –> $17k/yr + 4 trips a year to see family. Hopefully $6k to $7k/month savings. All numbers verified against my s/s.
During Phase 1 I hope to create a surplus saving of $150-200k, matching my s/s record of 186k.
(Q: how much 2017 USD savings did I use UP in Oct 2017 to pay for BridgeRetail? I think it’s 44+74-25-13-48=USD 32k, so this amount should be added to my current USD savings .. 32k + 128k = 160k, but excluding the USD brought from Singapore, about 12k)
Phase 3,4 — When my family comes over, my monthly burn rate will escalate to around $7k to $9k (realistic household burn rate]U.S.)
- health insurance? ….. US med bx – advice from colleague
- rent? …… $2k in NY/NJ area. Could save a bit by sharing with sub-tenant. Many Singapore families with kids have a paying guest, on the same floor.
- family expenses? initially high; need to bring down to …. $2k to 4k
- my daughter will NOT attend pre-school.
- big ticket items like overseas vacations, car, furniture, moving home? I will delay and minimize.
(Phase 3 is the initial set-up — 6-12M; Phase 4 is the stabilizing period. )
Depressing numbers. I didn’t really anticipate my burn rate to become so much higher. Hopefully things will turn out better, like $6k/month.
If I could reduce my Phase 4 burn rate to half of my income I would feel very relieved.
Phase 5 is after we buy a home, perhaps in 5 years.
[19]cohort family BR=USD 6k ex.housing+med
See also big-ticket discretionary spends4Chinese middle-class]US
I know our monthly burn rate in SG = SGD5k (6k including $700 tax), with zero rent or mtg. How about U.S. ? My estimate is USD 8k, or 6k Excluding the big 3 housing costs [pTax/mtg/rent]. Below is my quick survey.
Beware: rather few individuals would spend the time to understand the true burn rate including mtg monthly, excluding income tax. Therefore, their estimates can be 20% off the mark.
Beware: Melvin3 highlights the omission of infrequent but large repair costs.
In the job loss scenario, austerity can cut family burn rate by 20%+ but more likely I would return to Singapore, where my burn rate is roughly half the U.S. level, after FX conversion.
- Jenny ——– said 5k minimum for 4-people family, excluding housing/pTax+medBx. This would be Melvin1. Jenny said her bank statement shows minimum 3k+
- CSDoctor —- said $9k including mtg and pTax so I guess non-housing burn rate = 6k.
- CSY ———- said household expenditure might be under 5k, excluding A) med insurance, B) pTax, C) mtg. If Including A+B+C, he estimated 6-9k.
- XR ———– said he did his income taxes many times, each time summing up his total outlay as 100k+. This total used to include mortgage but now it includes 2.4k childcare + pTax and zero mortgage. By my standard, his monthly burn rate is 9k
- Deepak —– said $9k for a family of three, including $2200 rent and $250 med insurance sponsored by employer. In 2022, he estimated their combined take-home was 160k+ and saving target was 55k
- https://transferwise.com/us/blog/cost-of-living-in-the-usa says excluding income tax or rent, average in NY = 4k
- median family pretax income is typically equal [1] to total burn rate including everything, so after tax total burn rate is probably 65k/Y across the country. Pretax is 79k/Y according to https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEFAINUSA646N
- https://howmuch.net/articles/how-americans-spend-money-2017 shows 57k/Y excluding income tax, for an average American family. Per month = 5k
- https://www.bls.gov/cex/csxgloss.htm shows pTax, mtg .. are part of OwnedDwelings expenditure.
- https://www.valuepenguin.com/average-household-budget#nogo and https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/personalfinance/budget-and-spending/2018/05/08/how-does-average-american-spend-paycheck/34378157/ show breakdown by expenditure category
[1] My own estimate — most American families save less than 5% over long term like 5Y+
##[19] big discretionary spends 4中产华裔
Original title “big discretionary spends4Chinese middle-class]US”
Trigger: If I benchmark with those earning 200k, my wife and kids would want vacations to Japan, Europe… When I tell them “not necessary”, they might feel impoverished, right? (It’s again the struggle between FOMO and livelihood.)
Not sure. Useful to zoom into the biggest discretionary spends. Figures below are monthly outlays.
Deepak CM pointed out that the immigrants middle class leave their home countries and come to the U.S. to live a “better” life. “Better” means discretionary spends.
I arrange the monthly amounts from big to small. This analysis is similar to Melvin3, and different from the “amortized” calculations.
[M=part of Melvin3 US^sg]
— [M] USD 3k->5k-7k/M : mortgage P/I + pTax.
They would want a bigger home. I can accept a small home, but prime location!
Wife may want a top school district.
— USD 5K/M/child (60k/Y) for a branded college
CSY’s son has a 60k/Y college fee (similar to Ivy League). 50% paid by parents i.e. 2500/M. With such additional burn rate, my idea of “lower stress, lower pay” easy job is impractical.
— [M] USD 1k/M (minimum) luxury car. Figure is TCO including amortization and depends on usage.
They might want a brand new car, not pre-owned.
In Singapore, I have debates about the need for a private car. In U.S., the debate is about how many cars and how big.
— USD 1k/M/child enrichment, special training? Not sure how prevalent. Figure varies a lot.
— USD 0~2k/M/child private school? Not prevalent.
— smaller items.. lifestyle creeps:
- vacations? Not sure how prevalent
- family outings, dining out
- sportswear? very much discretionary.
- electronic gadgets
- musical instruments
- photography
- toys
[18] car TCO≅USD7k/Y ex-amortization #R.Xia
k_X_car_dependency
XR told me $500/M, excluding depreciation (or amortization of initial purchase price), but I estimate $7k/Y including unplanned costs.
https://www.businessinsider.com/living-without-a-car-2018-9#1-saving-money-1 says $15k/Y in the Bay Area.
[s=surprise, unplanned costs]
- amortization 10k/5Y = 2k/Y. ( Amortization is linear. In contrast, depreciation is driven by mileage, and assessed by a car mechanic. )
- consumables including fuel
- fuel cost sensitivity
- insurance
- regular wear and tear
- [s] unexpected repairs .. rare but expensive
- necessary tolls
- [s] tolls that should not be incurred
- legit parking
- [s] parking fines .. will improve with driving experience.
- [s] other fines
[17] affordability @700k family home #NRY
Update — if I were to buy a 700k family home, it should have multiple storeys and I need to lease multiple rooms on other floors to collect $2k-4k rental. The luxury condo model (389 Washington St) is completely unsuitable for me.
I tend to think I could afford a 700k home with the pTax + HOA, but I might be over-confident.
- pTax up to $20k/year … way too high
- mtg $3000/month (depending on down payment percentage) too heavy and much higher than rental!
- closing cost and necessary renovations
- down payment (excluding renovation) at least 20% 140k
- (I guess the only way I can afford 700k house is massive $400k down-payment)
Issue #1: Could I afford to pay 5k/month? 4k/month is about my max. My overseas rental income (see blog on 4 ffree scenarios) will build up a reserve. I still want to squirrel away $1k/month as a savings habit.
Issue #2: A severe problem is rent-out. It’s hard to rent out for a large $4k rental to cover the monthly cost, so I will feel “tied down” just like Jack He.
Staying rented is safer and more flexible as we can move to a cheaper home if we later find out our burn rate and saving rate are not as good as planned.
NNIA ->low-stress job]U.S.
Update — CSDoctor said his monthly burn rate is $8k including $3k mortgage+pTax, but excluding some unspecified school fees.
Hi XR,
I remember you said your monthly burn rate was about 9k. I feel your double income is comfortably sufficient. Not so sure why you repeatedly felt a high pressure.
With my overseas passive income, hopefully I can afford to take on a lower paid job close to home or a work-from-home job. I envision myself taking home $10k+ after tax, and we spend $8k excluding mortgage. My wife’s salary and our passive income will be extra income.
To reduce the $8k monthly burn rate, I will
· reduce driving
· buy medical insurance for kids only
· consider smaller houses. $300k in Bayonne would cost me $600/m pTax
I feel that’s a reasonable, not deprived, quality of life for my family. If it’s too tough, I can always consider relocating to Singapore.
Which jobs were low-stress so far? Here they are, ranked
- Verizon
- Citi
- ICE — c++ parser of raw market data
- OCBC — c#. I took ownership of two unrelated, less critical applications from the original developers.
Melvin3 US^sg #repair,CORBRA
— Letter to Melvin Artes —
This is a summary of my thoughts. Recently I figured out U.S. cost level significantly higher than Singapore, in several categories. In quiet reflection, I often feel U.S. lifestyle offers many fancy, modern features (even more than SG), plus some countryside charms.. (Do I even care?) but at the cost of —
- Much Higher pTax, for the same property value.. $800~1500
- .. HOA (higher than in SG) is excluded from this list because about half my U.S. peers don’t incur HOA
- .. mortgage monthly (higher than in SG) is excluded from this list because it is also present in Singapore, and the amount is harder to estimate than pTax.
- Much Higher medical costs including insurance premium .. $800-2500… See U.S.med bx price=$400/head
- Higher transportation including cost due to private car.. $500-1500 for a modest car. In Singapore many people I know have a low need for private cars, so we make do without them.
- Public transportation also higher than SG. I currently pay USD 180/M excluding citibike fees
- —– Beyond the big-three, here are some relatively minor items:
- Higher professional repairs [car, fridge, wood houses…] are much more costly than in SG. ( Stone houses have lower maintenance costs but… ) Repairs are so expensive (while tools so affordable) in the U.S. that many Americans learn DIY.
- infrequent major repair costs were likely excluded when I asked my peers about their monthly burn rate. If you only incur such a cost once a few years, how do you include it in your monthly estimate?
- Elementary and secondary school costs are comparable to Singapore, since my kids are Singapore citizens.
- The other cost items are minor in my case
- Supermarket price tags are comparable to Singapore
- Utility costs are slightly higher
You introduced to me an interesting perspective — start from the top rather than bottom [1] and decide on an annual budget. Well, basically for roughly the same quality of life, my Singapore budget was about SGD 5k (USD 4k), whereas U.S. budget would be USD 8k excluding rent+mtg. In both cases I exclude mortgage payments and income tax but include pTax.
The $4k difference is largely due to the top 3 items above.
[1] Now in 2021, I have a growing suspicion about the top-down approach. It basically means “If my cohort (in the same income bracket) spend 80% of income then I will also spend that amount.” That is classic lifestyle creep and spending-by-peer-comparison. Following this top-down, I would spend on useless things like multiple luxury cars, luxury vacations. I suspect Deepak’s “seeking better life” leads to the same top-down approach.
I do have my American dream about opportunities, but with our combined income (low contribution from wife), the $3500 difference is non-trivial. My monthly savings will be halved because of this $3500 excess outlay. I had better ask myself “What’s more important — opportunities or monthly expenses?”
You mentioned the various government benefits that my taxes pay towards, but will I enjoy any of these benefits?
- · In Singapore we pay much lower taxes but my kids can get decent education, not inferior to here
- · Singapore medical services are not inferior to here.
- · Safe, clean streets are possible in expensive school districts but we get them free in Singapore.
- · Whatever a municipal government provides to residents here, using my pTax, I get in Singapore.
This is a complex question, so I need to put away the secondary factors and focus on the core issues important to my family. I have not done a thorough analysis, but my tentative conclusion is —
“For a given quality of life for my family (we don’t need cars or top schools) U.S. cost level is close to twice Singapore level, whereas our combined after-tax income level is roughly equal.”
We can have a separate chat about schools. My wife actually worries about guns so she doesn’t want any U.S. school, not even the top schools. I believe most U.S. schools are OK in terms of safety, so drugs and guns and bullies are present in every school but most schools are reasonably safe.
If I determine that 70% of U.S. schools have an unacceptable safety standard, then I may have to conclude this entire country is unsuitable for us. When I talk to the non-Asian friends the unanimous answer is a clear No. So I don’t worry about it.
— Q: Median household pretax income is 70k, so how do these typical families cope with those big items?
First, some statistical clarification. Households include many singular households. The median income among families with kids is different, possibly higher. Let’s assume 90k pretax. After tax would be 6k/M. My 2017 after-tax was around 6k/M.
- pTax .. many of the average families can’t afford buying home. Their actual rental is typically lower than pTax + mortgage monthly. Typical rent in NY/NJ is $1k-2k.
- pTax .. most locations outside NY/NJ have pTax lower than 1% and home value much lower than 500k. 1.2% of a $300k home means $300/Month pTax
- car .. is presumably a necessity for many average families, so they incur the same cost as estimated. Many choose to lease a car.
- medbx .. is discretionary spend. I assume some of the average families don’t buy or buy very cheap policies, and risk higher medical bills.