Icard [International ccard or dcard] is becoming popular on wcpay, alipay and taobao.

Wife needs taobao. Period. “Stop using taobao” was my tough /proposition/. As of 2025, I consider icard-via-alipay as the most sustainable and strategic payment solution for her taobao needs… Light-touch fraud-control by Alipay. In contrast, all RMB payment channels come under strict scrutiny, esp. when she has no RMB bank account and must go through another person’s /onshore/ bank account. Every onshore Rmb account has high-touch fraud-control.

Q1: why is smrz /enforcement/ impractical for international cards (and mobileNum)?
Q2: why is third-party card binding allowed for icard?
%%A: fundamentally, Alipay (and wcpay) can’t confirm the “real” card owner even if owner is indeed the alipay account owner. Due to privacy protection, Alipay has no right to ask issuing bank “What’s the real identity of this card owner?” In contrast, with smrz China banks openaly share account owner information with Alipay and wcpay. Therefore, alipay/wcay are mroe strict and trigger-happy about fraud control. Presumably, they are asked by China government to collect, demand and keep evidence of full money trail of every transaction.

— alipay .. A single icard can bind to up to 3 unrelated alipay accounts (Q2).

eg: my international ccard is bound to wife’s alipay account (the CC).
eg: Boy was able to use ZLH passport + my HSBC.sg ccard.

— taobao .. Even withOUT smrz, wife’s alipay account (the “CC” account) can bind an icard. However, this icard is _supposedly_ unusable in taobao, regardless of alipay smrz.

On 8 Dec 2024, SCSC (-9933) ccard was used to pay for a taobao order, through ZLH’s “CC” alipay account. I feel relieved to open up (and confirm) this important channel, ending months of uncertainty.

Rule 1: Any taobao acct should bind an alipay acct (though you can remove the alipay account and leave the taobao account unattached).

Rule 2: taobao account is supposed to use an icard directly without going through the alipay acct. I think this is rarely used among the Chinese. We need to test Rule 2.

SMRZ in Rule 2 i.e. taobao using icard ? I think smrz is impractical. See Q1.

 

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See also

• [1] ChannelA: SGD{UnionPayATM
• inheritance ex_China
• what to do with my RMB expatriated to Sgp .. see ##Chn bank accounts

I will use a simple estimate of 20% for my share of the Beijing home. Actual percentage might be slightly higher, but I have received a lot more “gift money” before Aug 2024. My 1560k ex_China project started in Aug 2024. Its aim — transfer 20% of the sale proceeds i.e. 20% of RMB 7,800k to Singapore. I will call it 1560k ex_China or simply ex_China project. Among the multiple moving parts, my Priorities are —–> 1) surveillance risk 2) speed vs cost

— Q4: risk with physical USD/SGD placed in DJDJ ?
Primary risk is misplacement; Risk of theft is close to zero.
— Question #1: risk of hitting SAFE surveillance?
— Channel-H: hsbc.cn -> hsbc.sg .. Ask a friend to withdraw USD 10k under his name. Wait a few days. Meet up somewhere safe to hand over USD. On the spot I will transfer 70k to his account (smrz). This proposal is low risk and relatively easy to sell.
— Channel520: carry USD 5k + Rmb 20k bank note through airports .. good when travelling in group.
— Channel-A ..SGD{ UnionpayATM .. to manage transaction cost,

• faster ex_China means higher DIR. 3M would generate 1% return.
• transfer more when forex is favorable

Throughput, legwork, safety … are better in ChannelA than Channel520

— Channel-M (Grandp 182 1084 MMDD): mobank to transfer USD 50k in one go.

Q: who to use ChannelM? Prefer to have Grandpa (not Grandma) use ChannelM because

• grandma can easily use ChannelH/520
• grandpa has a slightly stronger public profile in case of  SAFE suspicision

I need to help them operate, perhaps when I’m in Singapore.

Q: new SIM to bring to Sg, so that I can hopefully operate from Singapore?

— Channel-M2: ask multiple friends to buy and TT 50k each, like Yinghui, HanPing… not so much to speed up, but to reduce surveillance risk. However, grandparents may still get noticed.. perhaps lower probability.

If you ever transfer for a friend, then cover your trail by

1. buy then send 50k
2. then deposit the equivalent RMB, perhaps into another bank’s acccount

— 2025 plan ..

• Channel 520: (20k + perhaps 6k) x 3
• ChannelA: max out my 100k over a few months; 80k from grandpa
• ChannelH: max out 50k
• ChannelM via GP’s mobank: 30k + 12k leftover from 2024

SAFE policy allows each person to withdraw Rmb100k/Y from a Sgp ATM machine, across all your bank cards.

UnionPay system (not HSBC system) allows Rmb 10k per transaction, so you need 10 transactions to use up 100k quota.

100k/Y Quota resets on 1 Jan.

Forex rate is controlled by UnionPay system and should be the same regardless of the bank.

The most obvious justification for card holder performing overseas ATM withdrawal .. to withdraw cash to spend at cash-only shops. There are many cash-only shops in Singapore and Japan. To conform to this usage pattern/expectation, it is prudent to space out two withdrawals.

— best practice

• ensure there’s Rmb 11k balance in China bank account
• optionally bring BOC atm card to deposit immediately
• check debit amount via SMS
• record in ex_china.xls
• spread out the withdrawls to avoid surveillance radar

— throughput .. R100k/Y, better spread out.
With multiple people’s cards, I can achieve perhaps R300k/Y. With grandma and grandpa’s accounts, I can safely take out up to 90k/Y over 9 withdrawals.

— surveillance sensitivity .. medium (for citizens) sensitivity according to a few sources. Lincoln, Yang.Yu and a helpful Hsbc.cn  hotline lady advised me to stay clear of the limit.

• “Peraps utilize 80% of the annual limit”.. I will aim at 98%
• “when you are close to 100% of 100k/Y quota, exercise caution and never exceed the limit”
• Lincoln felt foreigners are less scrutinized, but better aim below 100% usage
• For China nationals travelling overseas, aim at 80% of the limit to stay below the radar

UnionPay hotline +861095516 told me nationality doesn’t matter. I get the impression that UnionPay system may have a loophole that might allow a customer to exceed the 100k quota. I guess there exists a technical challenge (to any real time surveillance) when the same customer uses two banks’ cards concurrently on two ATM machines.

* Penalty for breach .. zero quota for the next calendar year.
* Penalty (bigger) .. suspension of the bank card. After that, we may decide to leave a small balance there idle indefinitely until reactivation at branch. This consequence/penalty/scenario is … tolerable.

==== tx cost .. comparable to the 0.75% HSBC.sg fee for Channel520, and easily offset by a few months of DIR

— PSBC (knows I’m a passport holder.) Rmb 62 for a $10k withdrawal. PSBC showed two separate debits on 14 Sep 2024 —

• Rmb 61.98 fees.. close to the $62 max
• Rmb 9995.8 = $1820* UnionPay official rate 5.4922

Rmb 4 charge for balance inquiry on ATM 🙁

— Hsbc (knows I’m a passport holder.) Rmb 110 for a 10k withdrawal.

Repeat 10 times and it costs you Rmb 1100 to withdraw up to Rmb100k… 1.1%+ commission

Hsbc advised me to monitor the actual Rmb conversion amounts. They might exceed 10k!

6 Sep 2024 experience: 5.4741 was the UnionPay official rate. On BOC ATM, I keyed in SGD1820. Total fee = R110 ==> 5.4741 * 1820 + 110 = Rmb 10072.86 deducted from hsbc.cn

On another day, the official UnionPay rate also matched my Hsbc calculation.

— ICBC, CCB, BOC (all know I’m a passport holder.) Rmb 112 for a $10k withdrawal, consisting of R 12 + 1% of withdrawal amount

Compared to Cambodia, Philippines,,, China banks are better .. easy2visit; 24H hotline; efficient

— Common t$costs

1. Common $cost: cross-bank ATM.. LGlp small amount
2. Common tcost: revive a dormant/de-activated account or ATM card
3. Common tcost: replace expired passport.. Need to bring old + new passports to a branch. If you don’t update, then you will face difficulty when you bring an unrecognized passport to branches.

— Common operations:
* operation: check balance, cash-out
* operation: deposit at ATM or transfer-in. [Transfer-out requires SMS OTP sent to a real-name phone number 🙁 ]
* operation: update mobile num
* operation: update password/PIN

==== BOC/ICBC offshore RMB facility
Warning — any RMB amount I withdraw(min Y50)/spend in China, from BOC.sg account may get locked up inside China indefinitely, since you can’t deposit the amount back to this offshore account. Remember our long-term goal to bring out our RMB assets.

RMB time deposit is self-service on mobank. Safe early withdrawal.

Default plan:

• place time deposit to earn some interest, but we might leave some 1k buffer for “dire_situation” below.
• Favor shor-term TD for RMB. When SGD/RMB improves (drops), withdraw in physical RMB (FOC), and convert to SGD at money-changer.
• .. If you convert at BOC, bid/ask spread can be as big as 1300 pips i.e. 5.32/5.45. FX rate is unlinked to unionpay

— j4: use my MCSA as a contingency “resource” in addition to my onshore accounts [ICBC,PSBC, HSBC,,], when onshore accounts deplete/dwindle, or grandparents are unavailable. (This was my original hope for the EGA sub-account.)

In a dire_situation like running out of money for subway/food/taxi, having “another contingency RMB account” can mean the difference between having money vs penniless.  Even a SGD resource would alleviate this dire_situation.

We tend to neglect such a dire_situation as it is rare. I seldom spend more than RMB 3k/week. This “j4” is like disaster-recovery planning.

— Usage: branch deposit of excess RMB carried to Singapore. Keeping physical RMB long term in Singapore is a stressor and a hazard.
— Usage  (LGlp) ATM/POS:  Withdrawal is free at BOC machines (RMB 20/withdrawal at non-BOC). Deposit unsupported.

POS is available at “major” merchants, where foreigners shop, without wcpay/alipay. Eg: Xiaomi shop.

Any RMB deduction will hit this sub-account first. If exhausted, then SGD will be converted, with no fees.

UnionPay card is better supported than MasterCard.

 

 

 

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• plan name 47YearsGreatTerm
• expires before age 64 on 31/Jan/2072
• policy #025245718-3 , viewable in my own SSP [eConnect]
• $592.60 every Feb, started 1/Feb/2025
• 200k sum assured, with earlyCI rider and TPD
• Iris Pek

 

k_X_PPD_China

 

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For many essentials in China, you would need these two infrastructure accounts namely wcpay and alipay. Most shops can’t accept credit card or ATM card, basically nothing but alipay/wcpay. Shops do accept cash but some don’t have enough small change. Beware over-dependency on alipay/wcpay. They tend to be more complex and have more restrictions than POS or offline cash

I believe mobile is the primary GUI (browser? Nah), so you need to invest sufficient time to learn the basics. Alipay has better customer hotline but its integration with taobao is tricky.

I think Alipay is more foreigner-friendly. There is a brower interface with minimal functionality.

For Alipay/wcpay, each mobileNum is dedicated to one account only. Externally, each Alipay account is identified by a mobileNum (occasionally, email address). No sharing of mobileNum between two accounts.

— fake banknote .. Another reason to prefer ePay. Some unscrupulous taxi drivers or shops may quickly switch your genuine banknote for a fake one and then return the fake banknote to you “Hey, you gave me fake money”.

They usually do this with 100 yuan notes since they are the most valuable, although it may happen with 50 yuan notes too. Because of this, travel advisors suggest travelers in China keep some 10 or 50 yuan banknotes for small payments and avoid using 100 yuan notes when taking taxis or making small transactions. Personally, I guess this is rare, but frequent enough to warrant the above advice.

— PPD .. Alipay, wcpay, Meituan, Hello .. these platforms all have a PPD [=prepaid deposit] account, often in addition to bank card binding. Each platform has a “deduction_precedence” governing which account to hit first.

Alipay and wcpay can transfer to/from bank card. Unlike paypal, transfer-out incurs a 0.1% fee for wcpay/Alipay.

— risk of suspensions by banks, alipay, wcpay
In many countries, credit cards can be suspended, when banks pick up suspicious signs. In Singpaore, I have seen many. SCB once locked down my FAST.

In contrast, China /operators/ are more vigilant on fraud detection. They often use face verification (hard to pass). China goverment require these /platforms/ to use smrz, but Meituan is less strict.

Alipay and wcpay have larger user base than most banks. I think their systems are more automated.

Alipay payment amounts tend to be smaller than bank transfers. Alipay is almost as trigger-happy and as regulated as banks, in terms of fraud prevention. Trigger-happy banks would freeze your account and require verificaiton at branch. Alipay would also freeze your account and require some verification.

To recover from suspension, it is easier to visit a branch. However,

• I worry about psbc::gp card suspension. Grandpa is immobile.
• I worry avbout my alipay/wcpay account suspension. No branch:( I took lots of pains to pass smrz and then remain under the radar.

If wife’s alipay binds psbc::gp, suspension of the bank card is unlikely and only authorized by PSBC, according to hotline.

==== wcpay
My wcpay is set up with smrz (+bank card) + 15910255241
HSBC-Sg visa card … can keep there as reminder “Foreign cCard usable”. Removed in Sep 2023

RedPacket is a payment channel, not an account. All incoming/outgoing amounts hit the wcpay PPD.

PPD is one of several payment_modes (also payment_channels). 服务 > 收付款 > below QR code > payment modes ranking > PPD is one option beside bank card.

In Sep 2023, I was able to top up Hello PPD from wcpay PPD.
In Feb 2024, I was able to withdraw/cashout from PPD to my ICBC bank card within 2 seconds 🙂

Settings > Help/Feedback > online help .. there’s some live chat
Settings > Help/Feedback > wcpay > Help center
Settings > General > 辅助功能 > wcpay

Q: why is smrz so much stricter in wcpay than wechat?
%%A: I think wechat is just another messaging app, but wcpay is a financial infrastructure component. A wcpay account is a bank account.

written answer is more important than verbal answer

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636 95588 hotline is 24/7. All branches are Mon-Sat, no Sunday branch.

multi-currency savings account can accept USD via TT.

— wife’s difficulty
Sugg 1: open account at BOC to receive from icbc.cn
Sugg 2: retry in 6M and give a better “purpose”

Sembawang is the most convenient branch to bring wife to

Q: if I help wife open an account but end up leave it unused, is there any regret?
A (after discussing with Wayne): nothing. We can close the account after 6M

— to avoid soft-closure, need some transactions every 12M. Giro may not count, but incoming/outgoing FAST counts
— USD/RMB/SGD (any ccy) TD.. no penalty for early termination. If you withdraw a 6M TD within 5M, you receive 5M worth of savings interest, without loss of principal. Therefore, it’s safe to use auto-renew. Better than BOC.

You can also disable auto-renew.

Partial withdrawal .. unsupported.

— deposit USD … ($100 notes only).  1% handling fee with no mimimum
deposit Rmb FOC, but only Rmb100 notes, inferior to BOC.sg
— USD transfer within Sgp
local Cashier’s Order .. first one of the day is free.
receiving cheque is free.
— USD 工银速汇 to ICBC.cn (unneeded now)
No charge by ICBC.sg
— my accounts

• ccy TD: *5518
• SGD TD: *7326

Each card number is considered an account; the savings account number is another account.  FAST outbound .. Source account can be any of them.
— webank tips:

• For tx history .. MyAC -> CheckAccount -> change currency -> search
• For FAST out .. OutwardRemittance -> LocalSGD -> choose template
• .. FAST minimum $1 and no upfront reminder !
• ExternalTransfer means intra-bank to wife’s ICBC account
• login: tiger40490/T08xxxxxx. Hardware token is a pain. There is a soft token in the mobank.

j4: Sooner or later I will need to buy stuff for grandparents in China. Better set up the account well in advance, given the complexity. Much more stressful dealing with them when you need to buy stuff in a hurry.

I decided to keep both accounts because the “system” is not so flexible. (Aha.. On Paypal and Monster I also have two accounts for two countries.) When I buy from Singapore, I will use the SG account.

loginID or mobileNum can’t be used with password auth 🙁

SmsOtp login is less reliable because taobao system often fails to send it.

— alipay binding..

I don’t know which account is bound with my alipay account. However, when I login to taobao via alipay QR code, I entered the China account.

I guess any taobao account can bind to an alipay account… Can try binding my alipay to wife’s taobao account.

— hotline… I need an effective hotline. Vivo, routers, Starhub and many banks offer imperfect hotlines but usually better than nothing.

ChnM has arguably more customers than taobao and is able to offer effective hotline support!

— card binding

I hope to use my Chn onshore accounts, rather than my ccards.

— SG account | +65-9xxxx | gmail

• email/password tested 24 Sep 2023.
• recovery questions set

— Chn account | +86-我爱死你 | @mlp.com

• email/password tested 24 Sep 2023.
• recovery questions set