[19] dividend as foundation4retirement #^bond

See also

5 REIT Dividends You Could Retire On Forever claims that REIT dividends can be “forever”. I doubt it.

Jack Zhang told me a story of a Taiwanese retiree who bought ConEdison in the 1960’s and now receiving annual dividends that are probably around 100% of principal (100% DYOC). He also shows me Yahoo finance has complete dividend history. You can see how stable a company’s dividends really are. Now I feel such stories are rare and require luck similar to buying the a tech super-stock, or “right property at the right time” — basically lottery picking.

— compare to bonds.. Stocks are riskier than bonds, but among all stocks, I feel utility stocks like T:US are the safer choice for retirees, comparable to high-yield bonds. Appreciation is low but appreciation is secondary compared to reliable dividend.

Compare to investment-grade bond’s coupons, dividend is unstable as foundation for retirement. If you need USD 4k/M, and social security provides $2k, then dividend could fluctuate. In a good year you need to squirrel away the surplus.

## durability@升值[appreciation] #holding power

Experience shows that our estimate of the downside is usually an underestimate.
Therefore, some risk-averse investors dare not or refuse to trust the conventional wisdom about long-term strength of equity asset class.
They would prefer cash or safe asset classes like soverign bonds.

They suspect that, in general, high-risk-high-return assets may turn out to be high-risk without a real alpha [i.e. without significant likelihood of excess return].

I see long-term strength only in U.S. equity. I consider all other markets highly unstable, but that is probably simplistic and over-generalized.

Q: Pick a random 10Y window some time into the near future (within your lifetime). What is your estimated probability that SP500 (or another stock market) would show a positive return?

The skeptics would probably say slighly above 50%. Some would say that a fairly priced SP500 could, in theory, shoot up 100 times (above fair value) over a year shortly before that window, and then it would be precarious and could collapse any time. However, such a scenario is unlikely because SP500 is hard to manipulate. The buyers would put themselves at grave risk by bidding up the price.

( In contrast, Beijing rEstate valuataion is possibly 5 times above fair value, and could collapse any time. )

How about insurers? I think they invest some 10-20% in eq, the rest in bonds. Appreciation in their portfolio tends to be durable.

How about CPF (and pension funds)? For decades they have relied on eq to provide the required return. They have been fairly reliable, despite many swan events.

Temasek’s 400b is invested mostly in equities, with 62% allocation to Asia. Apparently, there is long-term strength in Asia equities, but I think this is misleading, because the retail investor would lack the resources of a gigantic fund, and unable to limit numerous losses that add up.

Some would predict an eq hedge fund could hit “positive returns for a few years, then give all up in one bad year”. Well, MLP is one of the biggest hedge funds and we count some pension funds and insurers as investors. We are mostly equities but rather stable over the last 3 decades.

Now I feel Nsdq (or another U.S. index) is susceptible to “fast_window” of 500% appreciation. That would precede a very long trough.


past title: durability of asset appreciation

Q: after an asset appreciates by 100%, how confident are we about its stability? Note cpf and bonds won’t show such high appreciation.

  • eg: appreciation of a racing horse .. won’t last long
  • eg: One 92s27 classmate (水生?) bought a recreational club membership nearby. The membership is lifetime and transferrable, with a market price. My classmate felt confident that the price has held steady. If it shows an appreciation, how much confidence do you have?
  • eg: gold .. a curious story. Somehow it is perceived as more stable than stocks, but still not very stable.

— holding power.. My bias: the stronger investors, the wise investors tend to allocate more to the more “durable” assets, and hold them through a trough, rather than liquidating at a loss.

Q: What if a durable asset hits a swan, and experiences a trough longer than expected? Is it really durable?
A: That scenario is non-academic; it is the reason for risk-management. We would need to reassess the 20Y prospect. Very unlikely we would need to liquidate at a loss.

— swan events .. a major source of instability. I feel U.S. stocks and some rEstate markets recover fast or don’t fall enough to wipe out 3Y of appreciation. I tend to see an economic basis for their appreciation.

In contrast, if the stock/rEstate price is in a speculative bubble, then it isn’t durable. The crash doesn’t need a swan event.

see also scenario plann`: asset devalue over50-100Y

— eg: FWD300 surrender value grows year after year, faster than FLI. The longer you hold, the sweeter.

In constrast, cpfLife has declining surrender value 🙁

— eg: bccy .. no basis for their valuations, so I feel high valuations can evaporate faster.

Binance founder CZ … over 5Y became #1 richest Chinese in the world, but how long did he last?

— eg: rEstate .. appreciation is usually more stable. We are more confident about its durability. I think rEstate have much slower price changes than stocks. The monthly count of transactions is a trickle compared to stocks.

In general but not always, the faster something appreciates, the less durable, unless it is a scarce resource without substitutes.

— eg: SP500.. no other stock index shows the same /durability/ of appreciation.

— eg: single-name stocks ..
For a growth stock, the appreciation is mostly based on projected growth, rather than declared earnings. I feel it is less stable.

Compared to traditional blue-chips, tech blue-chips have less moat, and face more frequent challengers and churn.

I feel traditional, boring stocks seldom show fast appreciation. When they do, I feel more confident about its durability.

time=onYourSide iFF…#patience #stableAppreciation

 


k_babysit4exit

My friend Kun.H is the first one to remind me this vague yet powerful factor (See my Feb 2021 mail below). Warren Buffett also mentioned some variation of it. He wants to buy-n-hold for decades. IFF you choose wisely, then the assistance of Time can be effective and quick. I think ValueInvesting often shows powerful examples but not everyone is able to follow ValueInvesting principles.

— BnH: time is on your side if you buy and hold. If you try to time the market to exit, then time is probably not on your side.

Assuming BnH is a good thing, BNH proves to be much easier with real assets due to higher tx cost ?!

For both BGC and khm investments, I need many more years than initially planned (10Y). Luckily, I invested at age 41 and later, so I have a long runway.

— swans and price stability
With speculative assets, I don’t feel time is on your side. See https://tanbinvest.dreamhosters.com/1786/durability-asset-appreciation/

ChineseBambooTreeParable .. is more relevant in pff than in other domains, because:

  • buy-n-forget .. you need due diligence to pick the seed. After that, you don’t need to babysit.
  • there’s an effective “system” at work, with the power to grow the asset. No such “system” outside the pff domain.
  • in pff, from Year 1 you can see the current value:) In the classic CBTP, the current value is $0 for four long years, i.e. no immediate result 🙁

Q: which asset classes are economically no-growth ?
* gold and oil … supposed to be scarce commodities with increasing demand, but the market may take decades to reflect that.
* bccy
— is time on your side in these asset classes? It depends on your horizon and other factors.

  • Time is usually on the side of productive assets, unless the payout rate is not growing enough.
  • U.S. stocks in general yes, but non-US tend to have long trough, so during your lifetime, Time may not be on your side.
  • U.S. index ETF .. long-term trend exceeds expRatio, so yes Time is on your side.
  • (see also mail below)
  • zero-coupon bond? Its value approaches par, but it is dubious to say Time is on your side. I guess in a volatile market, you can just hold the bond to maturity and therefore Time is on your side.
  • rEstate in developing countries — yes (but probably not in most parts of U.S. See blogposts on Brian.)
  • .. For rEstate, Time can be a lifetime 😉
  • REITs .. yes the rental payout gives hope that Time is on your side.
  • small amount of physical gold (so that I can keep at home at very small negative DYOC)? Time may not be on your side as gold long trough can last decades.
  • mufu? with expense ratio time is on fund manager’s side
  • FX? No
  • annuity like CpfLife? probably yes. The longer you live, the more payout you receive.
  • endowment and other insurance products? questionable
  • .. Note there’s a high expense ratio in all insurance products, worse than mufu.

—– Letter to Kun.H
I like your comment about “have time on our side”. Mutual funds have an erosive expense ratio, so time is on the fund manager’s side 😉

To have Time on my side, one of my habits is buy-n-hold. (A related habit is buy-n-forget, as explained in the earlier mail below. If I must babysit my positions, then Time is not really on my side.)

Q: Do stock markets show long-term growth more than inflation?
A: Not sure. Depends on the region and the timeframe. Most authors use U.S. equities history over the past 100 years. What if they only look at the last 20Y? What if they look at another region beside the U.S.?
A: Beware of survival bias. There are thousands of growth stocks (including fake and failed growth stocks) in the last 50 years, but if we include all stocks across all equity markets, the long-term trend would look less convincing, less foolproof.

In contrast to growth stocks, look at T:US. Not much of a long-term trend,  but it delivers a consistent dividend, following a sustainable DPR (dividend payout ratio). Looking at my dividend stocks like T:US, I feel “Growth is overrated and based on flawed analysis but dividends seldom lie.

Our friend, Time, is a big help in dividend stocks — If the business has healthy profit, cash flow and DPR, then time will prove that the stock is worth buying. Its valuation will tend to grow with the overall market, perhaps at a low beta.

With growth stocks, Time is even more helpful. Beware
* we must pick the real growth stocks not fake ones (with dividend stocks I mostly look at track record only)
* we may need to baby-sit them after we buy (less baby-sitting for dividend stocks… buy-n-forget)

It’s easier to be patient with an investment when it generates periodic cash incomes.

You raised the excellent question about bonds. High coupons are usually on long bonds… where inflation (Time) is NOT on our side. In contrast, about half of my dividend stocks could hopefully grow with the stock market. Both dividend amount and stock price would grow. Nevertheless, there is indeed a chance that my dividend stocks underperform bonds.

With both growth stocks and dividend stocks, we need to have Time on our side and we need patience.

My objective is not windfall appreciation. My objective is a dependable income, like retirees. For my objective dividend stocks are safer. I believe Time is on my side. Time will tell.

##Buffett quotes #BnH

— “In the 54 years (Charlie Munger and I) have worked together, we have never forgone an attractive purchase because of the macro or political environment, or the views of other people. In fact, these subjects never come up when we make decisions.”

— “It’s far better to buy a wonderful company at a fair price than a fair company at a wonderful price.”
Fair meaning mediocre
— “Should you find yourself in a chronically leaking boat, energy devoted to changing vessels is likely to be a more productive than energy devoted to patching leaks.” — don’t keep buying at lower prices if the business (not stock) is not performing as you expected. Leaks probably means annual losses.
— “Success in investing doesn’t correlate with IQ … what you need is the temperament to control the urges that get other people into trouble in investing.” — impulses, infatuations, fears
— “You don’t need to be a rocket scientist. Investing is not a game where the guy with the 160 IQ beats the guy with 130 IQ.”
— “If returns are going to be 7 or 8 percent and you’re paying 1 percent for fees, that makes an enormous difference in how much money you’re going to have in retirement.”
— “The difference between successful people and really successful people is that really successful people say no to almost everything.”
— “For the investor, a too-high purchase price for the stock of an excellent company can undo the effects of a subsequent decade of favorable business developments.” — market timing?
==== don’t focus on a fellow investor’s trec in good times
— “Only when the tide goes out do you discover who’s been swimming naked.”
When the market goes up and up, everyone looks like an investing genius. It’s only when things go sour that you see who actually has a good long-term strategy.
==== beware of infatuation with new technology
— “The key to investing is not assessing how much an industry is going to affect society, or how much it will grow, but rather determining the competitive advantage of any given company and, above all, the durability of that advantage.” — Buffett is not keen on innovative technology, but destructive innovation can hurt a cash-cow’s durability-of-advantage
— “In the business world, the rearview mirror is always clearer than the windshield.”
Focus less on prognosis. Historical data is always more accurate than future projections
— “Most people get interested in stocks when everyone else is. The time to get interested is when no one else is. You can’t buy what is popular and do well.”
I think in the short term, you can, simply because of first-mover advantage, momentum and other investors’ herd mentality.

==== on buy-n-hold
— “If you aren’t willing to own a stock for ten years, don’t even think about owning it for ten minutes.”
— “When we own portions of outstanding businesses with outstanding managements, our favorite holding period is forever.”
Note when the “outstanding” becomes mediocre, then holding period may need adjustment.
— “Buy into a company because you want to own it, not because you want the stock to go up.”
— “Buy a stock the way you would buy a house. Understand and like it such that you’d be content to own it in the absence of any market.”
I think “market” means liquidity or opportunity to sell for a profit, similar to :

“I never attempt to make money on the stock market. I buy on the assumption that they could close the market the next day and not reopen it for five years.”

 

Buffett no longer beating (only)SP500

Note SP500 is all-large-cap and all-US.

Buffett is no longer beating the SP500 in annual returns.

https://www.fool.com/investing/2019/12/22/5-reasons-warren-buffett-didnt-beat-the-market-ove.aspx is one of the better explanations.

In https://kernelwealth.co.nz/buffett-vs-sp-500/ , When asked whether Berkshire or the S&P 500 would be a better investment for a long-term investor, he did not hesitate to answer that “I think the financial result would be very close to the same”. Note he said “financial”, and only U.S. index can match Buffett’s financial results.

I wonder why Buffett (and many others) still stick to value investing “systems”? A big , complex question, but I don’t mind offering my simple, naive answers.

  • I believe value-investing is safer, less volatile, lower beta, higher Sharpe ratio.
  • tCost is higher, but I think the investor has better peace of mind than a SP500 tracking ETF investor.

MOETF crash nearest to a xjl crunch

See also MOETF [def]

Nearest to a time of xjl crunch(cashflow crunch), MOETF could hit a crash. I think this is one of G5 (or G3) reasons why most people hesitate about long-term commitment to the (risky) stock market.

— eg: when a family member hits a medical emergency
— eg: when a family member loses a job and needs to live off savings
— eg: During the years around age 30 (perhaps 25-35), most of us need liquidity for our xjl crunch. During this period, we tend to sell equity whenever we want to cut losses. This cohort lack patience, stamina or holding power. When these investors see a large (realized or unrealized) equity loss, they tend to regret investing such a large amount in such a risky asset. Therefore, it’s a challenge for this age group to buy-n-hold.

— eg: In our sunset years, we worry that we may not have the Sys2 resources to monitor MOETF. Some may experience that difficulty when they start to withdraw from retirement account, so they experience a xjl crunch. They find it difficulty to liquidate stocks to support retirement expenses.

div^capital_gain: which do you bet on@@

Between dividend and capital gain, which *one* is your primary focus financially? Which one do you bet on? Choose one please.

— Betting on dependable dividend income for retirement .. is betting on the “business” to generate free cash flow.
After we pay $40 for a XOM share, we hope to receive around $2 payout every year, without worrying about the short-term fluctuations in XOM price, assuming we don’t need to sell.

— Betting on capital gain is betting on supply/demand, betting on sentiment, betting on collective human reaction to news.

In this bet, inherent profitability of the business (heart@valInv) is perceived like weather or another source of news.

For example, when Twitter banned Trump, investor sentiment turned negative but some reactions were positive. Energy news impact energy stocks in complex ways, due to investor reaction.

buy-n-forget .. is harder for tech stocks.
Tech stocks, China stocks, financial stocks generate paltry dividend. So I am forced to monitor the sentiment and hope to escape before any crash.
buy-n-hold .. is the default for dividend investors. During the long holding period, we hope to be lucky with DYOC.
— Market timing .. is much less important for dividend investors. They kinda watch for entry points. They don’t watch for exit points, except for reallocation/re-balancing.

Buying too high …. is kinda tolerable for dividend investors, as long as DYOC is well-maintained. This depends primarily on dividend cut/raise decisions by the business.

DYOC ^ 中长线 #K.hu

— This is a Jan 2021 self-description of my trading style to a respected fellow investor.
I’m relatively new to stocks, growing my own portfolio and my own system. In my “system”, dividend takes center stage. I think your view is quite common and mainstream. It’s not wrong (though it may not meet my objective).

My objective is dividend as a (relatively) dependable income source, not capital appreciation. (What’s your objective?) If a stock has stable dividends then usually the business is resilient. As I said previously, if I buy at $100 and the price goes $30 to $150 over 3Y, I can afford to ignore the fluctuation to the extent that the dividend amount stays steady. If the actual dividend amount is steady (like $4/Yr, or 4% div yield on cost), then I intend to wait for 25 years to recover my capital. Patience and holding power are keywords in my “system”.

In your comments , I notice a recurring view represented by 正道 . I think many investors think their own “system” is the mainstream (probably yes) and is safe/prudent (??). Following these mainstream “systems”, I am also investing a small amount in ETFs based on sp500 stocks. I also look at each company’s long-term prospect, but not as the centerpiece, because I don’t have time or expertise to evaluate that.

Is dividend investing  正道? I believe it is fairly popular, proven, relatively safe, but less mainstream within my cohort. If you say a focus on dividend is not  正道 then I think thousands, possibly millions, of investors would disagree, esp. in the U.S. There are many articles about using dividend as a major retirement income.

Actually all “systems” I have come across are imperfect and risky. (For low-risk, we would consider government bonds and the money market.)  Within the universe of stock markets, I consider U.S. stocks safer than other regions, blue chips safer than unknown names, long-living companies safer than young stocks, proven profitable companies safer than growth stocks with low P/E.

If I were to use my objective and my safety criteria to judge another person’s system (possibly mainstream system), I might conclude it’s not 正道  not sustainable, perhaps because the realized dividend yield on cost is too low, making it tough to hold the stocks through a downturn. Overall, I feel my own new and evolving “system”, with my focus on dividend, is not mainstream but safer than many mainstream systems. I seldom buy tech stocks or financial stocks (I can name some exceptions). I do agree with the caution that fixation on current div yield can be unwise and regrettable, because some stocks stop paying high dividends after a few quarters, so an initial $100 become $50 in NAV (for many years) + $10 in cumulative dividend. Again, buy-n-hold would become a challenge.

You are right about dividend fluctuations. It’s rare (and precious) to find stocks with steady rising dividends + current dividend yield above 4% . I will name some examples in the future (Perhaps AT&T ? )

Note my 3Y holding period is not applicable to some ETFs.

On Thu, 21 Jan 2021 at 17:11, Bin TAN (Victor) wrote:

You said “big trends are usually only in mid to long-term, where short-term tradings, are usually noises compared to long-term. 抓大放小才是正道”.

I prefer buy-n-hold, hopefully for 3Y or longer, rather than short-term trading. However, I mostly buy for dividend rather than windfall profit. There’s nothing 大 in my approach. I estimate that 90% of my Robinhood assets have a published current dividend yield of 4% – 7% (actually dividend yield on cost is what I care about.)

While you (like other investors) monitor the stocks in your portfolio, I tend to monitor the dividend amounts. If I buy at $100 and the price goes $30 to $150 over 3Y, I can afford to ignore the fluctuation to the extent that the dividend amount stays steady.

Actually, I don’t monitor dividends. Dividend amount fluctuates less than stock price which is determined by supply-n-demand on the market. Dividend amount is decided by management, regardless of stock price.

 

exit_timing^BnH: K.Hu,Wood,Buffett

 


k_babysit4exit

The most common j4 exit_timing are

  1. BB) damage control .. purge bleeding/toxic assets and improve “quality” of your portfolio.
  2. AA) optimize asset allocation .. including cashing out on an _overvalued_ stock.

[[Irrational Exuberance]] P12 talks about “investors who can commit their money to an investment for ten full years”. About half the (Hundreds) analyses in the domain talk about long-term investors, but I don’t know how common they are, like 20%? I think most retail investors are driven by AA+BB to sell within 10Y. Retirement accounts and ETF are something else.

— mostly for BB:

K.Hu’s description of his 2022 timely exit is yet another powerful nudge “You must babysit your stocks, and time their exits“. I don’t buy that idea. I have an opposing view. During the early 2022 decline in SP500, most [1] professional/institutional/smart money have exited or gone short equities, but some x% of the smart money stuck to buy-n-hold. Buffett once endorsed DCA. With DCA, you keep buying down the curve. This is a clash of philosophies.

This “clash” is swept under the carpet most of the time, but becomes a recurring theme whenever I review/evaluate my stock investment. The clash is related to many other recurring themes listed below.

What to avoid to get”marketReturn” explains why any selling is problematic.

[1] herd_instinct .. usually more emotional and less rational, and often lead to price insensitive selling

— hot stocks .. often requires BB. As I said, I am not keen about hot growth stocks, including tech stocks. Out of 200+ stocks I own, about 1% of them are hot growth stocks where I invested more than $100 each.

When I do invest in hot stocks, I am like Cathie Wood, not like K.Hu.

For hot or other stocks, I think most retail investors (not sure about institutional) would sell at a declining market. That leads to over-selling, creating buying opportunities for buy-n-hold guys like Buffett and Wood.

— buy-n-hold .. “3Y hold” rule implies no babysit for exit. After 3Y+, I do sell for AA reasons.

Buffett usually holds for decades.

— analysis or babysit .. entry/exit timing always requires price forecast and Sys2 resources. Some investors (maybe half of them) have to babysit before the exit. Some investors like K.Hu would “analyze” before the exit.

I don’t like babysit or analysis. (I only perform my 3-min due diligence at entry.)

— firewall .. is under threat when (for BB) you try to time the market for exit

— recreation .. I feel BB is toxic and incompatible with recreational investing.
Even AA can be considered incompatible.